Jingoism

An interesting conversation between two Muslims

by on Apr.16, 2009, under Cause, Criticism, Jinguism, life, Pakistan

Conversation between two very old Muslims friends namely Ibad and Abdullah that I received through a forwarded email. Read it till end…. I am sure you gonna like it!

Ibad : Oh my GOD , abdullah is that you !!! whats wrong ? you’ve becomemullah and why have you grown a beard ?

Abdulllah : bother it is just that our prophet (pbuh) commanded us to grow
a beard.

Ibad : you are brain-washed , tell me where in the quran does it say ?
Abdullah : It says many times in quran “Obey Allah and Obey his messenger”

Ibad : I fear you are becoming extremist
Abdullah : islam means to submit your will to GOD, if practicing it 100% is extremism then thats what our beloved prophet (PBUH) did.

Ibad : I mean there should be a balance between deen and dunya, you should get education which islam commands to do.
Abdullah :I agree but i have completed 16 years of worldly education but i
don’t even have one year of religious education.

Ibad : Most of the madressa’s and religious schools teach extremism and
develop terrorist
Abdullah :Can you name any 5 madressa or religious schools ?

Ibad : I really don’t know , but why are you asking ?
Abdullah : You don’t even know the names then how can you comment on them so confidently ?

Ibad : Recently i heard news of violence in one madressa, rest are same.
Abdullah : You mean due to the firing incident in virginia tech is it fair
to say that all western universities are the same ?

Ibad : There is no compulsion in religion then why you people preach others
?
Abdullah : This verse of quran in only for non-muslims, its another misconception.

Ibad :Every one is responsible for own deeds ok!
Abdullah :its mentioned 9 times in quran to “enjoin what is good and forbid
what is wrong”

Ibad : Stop doing tableegh to me now
Abdullah : Quran says “The most successful group of people are those who
invite others to right and stop them from wrong”

Ibad : but you cant use force.
Abdullah : A hadith says “If you have authority stop evil with your hand,
if not then use your tongue & if you cant do that then at least consider it
bad in your heart”

Ibad : Please try not to teach me islam, i know very well and can solve my
problems.
Abdullah : Why then do you go to a doctor when your child is seriously ill
and take multiple opinions ? why cant you solve that as well ?

Ibad : We are living in 21st century , you are thinking backwards, my wife
is a working women and has done MBA
Abdullah : Women are used as marketing tools in organizations to trap
customers and increase sales.

Ibad : What non-sense they are equal opportunity employers
Abdullah : But why then all receptionists are females ?

Ibad :Look at USA they have given freedom to women not us
Abdullah : 90% of females in USA have lost virginity before even passing
school, is this freedom or degradation ?

Ibad : Why do we oppress women by keeping them behind bars of hijab ?
Abdullah : Do you mean our beloved prophet (pbuh) wives were oppressed
because they covered as commanded in surah-ahzab ?

Ibad : That was a different time 1400 years back
Abdullah : Quran is for entire humanity and science is proving the verses
today. its the most modern book dear.

Ibad : I am going ,i fear you will blow me up. take care
Abdullah : You are hiding your secularism by mixing me with those who are a
small misguided minority. Allah hafiz brother.

NOTE: The conversation is not a real story but the aforementioned exchanges of arguments are very common indeed

:, , , ,
28 comments for this entry:
  1. Rambler

    Interesting!

    It’s not others but us who bring a bad name to our own religion. We adopted the western terminology of moderate Islam, extermists Islam and now use it all the time when there are no such types in Islam.

  2. Asma

    very nicely written … though Women are used as marketing tools in organizations to trap
    customers and increase sales.
    is a very debatable point :)

  3. jingoist

    @Rambler..
    Agreed! But the situation is like our very own ppl follow the western tone about our Madarssas & Ullemas without even evidence.

    However the fact that ‘five fingers can never be equal’ remains there.

    @Asma..
    Well… this conversation isn’t written by me. I mentioned it earlier that I received it from a forwarded email.
    And yes I won’t agree with the original author at this *debateable* point :D .. however this is a fact which definitely hold something!

  4. AamirRaz

    The conversation is, well, cleverly written. It shows but only the aspects which most of us won’t object to. But, there are a hundred complexities in Islam, like other religions of the world.
    Few points:
    Abdulllah : bother it is just that our prophet (pbuh) commanded us to grow
    a beard.

    I wonder if he(SAWW) really ‘commanded’ to grow beard.

    Abdullah : islam means to submit your will to GOD, if practicing it 100% is extremism then thats what our beloved prophet (PBUH) did.
    Strongly agree!

    Abdullah : Quran says “The most successful group of people are those who
    invite others to right and stop them from wrong”

    And who will decide what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’?

    Last comment: How could you blame others for their wrong-doings(?) when it’s all writ.. there.. above.. in the Löh? Remember what one of the 6 kalimas proclaim (and is also a part of the seeghga-e-Nikaah): “khair-i-hee wa-shar-i-hee min Allah ta’ala

    !وماعلينا الالبلاغ :)

  5. jingoist

    @AamirRaz…

    Welcome to my blog! I won’t agree with the fact that Islam is a complex religion. However we ourselves have made it complex for various reasons.

    Any how I am glad to see your comment over this conversation. I ll be jotting down all the points against your queries as per my lil knowledge and experience.

    - Yeah, there are many occasions when our Prophet (PBUH) commanded to grow beards. Let me know if you need references.

    - you already agree it :)

    - Obviously the ones who have the knowledge of Fiqah and Shariah. You gotta believe this fact that we shouldn’t be the one to decide what is good n wht is not. As I mentioned above Islam isn’t that complex as we have made it. However we gotta admit that our basics about our religion isn’t upo the mark and we try to derive our very own meaning of what ever I know.

    - I didn’t really understand your LAST COMMENT part. I hope you could further clarify it.

    ps: I know I won’t be able to explain much at this point of time as I think cyberspace isn’t the place to discuss these things this way. I hope you would understand.

    Fi Amanillah!

  6. I A Bhopal

    Mr Aamir Raz has made out certain points which show that he has not studied Qur’aan Shareef, that is why, after writing statement not supported by Qur’aan, he has written at the end
    وماعلينا الالبلاغ

    That reminds me of an interview given by a half-dressed movie actress who said, ”With the grace of God, my movie was a hit”.

    I advise the gentleman to read definition of Sunnah and what it is meant for? Then he will come to know whether a Muslim should keep beard or not. However, it does not mean that a man should only keep beard. Wajib (duty) comes first and Sunnah later. No doubt, most of the Sunnah comes under “Wajib”.

    The words like fundamentalist, extremist, terrorist have been given specific meaning by the Western media to achieve their nefarious designs.

    A mathematician adheres to the fundamentals of Mathematics and thus is a fundamentalist
    A Physician sticks to the fundamentals of medical science and thus is a fundamentalist
    And so on
    A person can not be a Muslim until and unless he or she acts in accordance with fundamentals of Islam.

    Similarly, if a person believes extremely in Islam, he will be a good Muslim like a person believing extremely in science will be a good scientist. The non-Muslims do not call a scientist or mathematician or physician an extremist but they propagate Muslims as extremist because of their bad intentions.

    Now the word ”Terrorist”.
    George Washington, when he headed the “Freedom of America” movement against the British rulers, he was dubbed as “Terrorist” by the British rulers of that time America. Now, George Washington is a great hero of freedom. In fact he was always a hero.

    Nelson Mandela started freedom movement against the white rulers of South Africa. He was dubbed as “Terrorist” and sentenced imprisonment for life. He got freedom after having spent over 25 years of his prime life in prison.
    Later, the same Nelson Mandela, for the same act which was the reason of his imprisonment for over 25 years, was given the Noble prize for peace.

    Let us examine what is terrorism? It is the act that creates terror in the heart of one or more people.
    If a person enters in some one else’s premises and just at that moment police arrives. Arrival of police creates terror in the heart of that person even if he had not entered the premises with any bad intention.

    Practising Muslims, by virtue of their, righteousness, some-how become source of terror for bad character people. In this way all good Muslims are terrorists for the bad people.

    “Who will decide what is right and what is wrong?” is a question that a person having no knowledge of Qur’aan can ask. It is advisable that Mr Aamir Raz should STUDY Qur’aan. I am NOT saying READ.

  7. Leena S

    great, great post!
    i have been a hijabi for the past 3 years now and I come across such people every day who first make a comment on my hijab and wen i tell them why i have opted to be a hijabi, they think I am forcing em to do something and that I have been brain washed, become an extremist and should ideally start living in caves!
    As for doing an MBA and working, well, a woman can continue working covered from head to toe…Iran has proved it. And yes, I do believe that most women are doing wat men would want them to do in the name of ‘freedom’ and ‘liberastion’

  8. AamirRaz

    @jingoist
    1. If it’s really ‘commanding’, I’d surely be needing references. Plz.

    2. “Obviously the ones who have the knowledge of Fiqah and Shariah”
    Well, again: Whish Fiqeh? Jafri? Hanafi? Shafayi? And which Shariah? The one which Iran follows? The one which is a gift from the Taliban for Swatis? And if you name a cpl of them, why omit others?

    3. The last part of my comment had it that if it’s all in the Fate of human beings to do certain things and keep away from others, why on earth would you blame the poor human beings for their actions which they have no control over? They surely are helpless before their Fate?

    @Bhopal
    Quote: after writing statement not supported by Qur’aan, he has written at the end
    وماعلينا الالبلاغ

    Dear Bhopal, accepting that poor me hasn’t ‘studied’ Qur’an, I would like to state that I took these Arabic words literally without any mention of Qur’an. Did you find anywhere that I said I’m quoting sth from Qur’an? Nope. The words were put up their lightly and what I meant by them was their literal meaning, i.e. nothing’s unto me except state before you (what I think).. or, simply, I wanted to say that this is what I believe — you believe it or not!

    Quote:Wajib (duty) comes first and Sunnah later. No doubt, most of the Sunnah comes under “Wajib”.

    M confused, bro! The second sentence contradicts the first one. How can ‘Sunnah’ be ‘Wajib’? I mean how could I say, as if, that Optional subject is also compulsory?? O, how?

    Quote:“Who will decide what is right and what is wrong?” is a question that a person having no knowledge of Qur’aan can ask.

    Dear, I’m sorry but the so-called scholars are also ‘divided’ in their outlook of, let alone the worldly affairs, Shariah. If you really believe that those who have knowledge of Qur’an(so as to say) will not ask such questions, could you please comment on the difference of opinion in case of Rafay-yadain in Namaz? Mut’aa? Jihaad? Or even, was the Holy Prophet(saww) ‘Noor’ or ‘Bashar’?

    I know I shouldn’t have mentioned such sensitive points but I was compelled to.

    May Allah Almighty guide us all.

  9. Wakas

    A very nice conversation indeed. It’s true that when anyone wants to follow Islam there is always a nut who is pulling their leg. Just go with the flow and follow what the religion says some people might never get the point until Allah guides them.

    Thx for sharing

  10. AamirRaz

    @Wakas
    U didn’t mean me by ‘nut’, did you? :)

  11. jingoist

    @Aamir,

    I won’t get into another controversial conversation.. but I would like to specify two points here…

    - If you are so eager to know that.. you could find your self… a student goes to University and School for getting academics.. academics doesn’t come to you at your home…

    - And did you mean you don’t want to be religious for the reason that you are confused which Fiqah to follow ? Have fear of Allah and trust me your all confusions would get clarify!

    @Leena & @Wakas,
    Thanks, n welcome to my blog..

  12. jingoist

    Thanks for being here :)

  13. Wakas

    hehe no .. I didn’t call u a nut ji :)

  14. Asma

    I meant very nicely written by whoever wrote it :P

  15. jingoist

    @Asma… and I just clarified!!

  16. Muhammad Saad

    (Please remove my earlier comment. I have tried to make it more clear in this comment.)

    Aamir Raz wrote:
    “How could you blame others for their wrong-doings(?) when it’s all writ.”

    I have not been a regular student of a madrassa so I may be wrong. But I cannot just leave it as it is. So I will try my best to clarify it:

    Allah has made certain rules for running the system of this universe. He has also allowed humans to follow the path of their choice in order to test them. “Taqdeer” is a different thing. It is like this example:
    A person “A” wants to bring some sort of harm to another person “B”. But Allah does not want that harm to be done to person “B” because of some certain reasons. So any attempt to harm “B” by “A” will fail.
    As far as the choice of good or bad path is concerned, it is the choice of the humans themselves. Allah does not choose the path for them. They do it themselves. So they are responsible themselves.

    Once again I want to say that it is better to ask a regular scholar of Islam than blindly trusting my opinion. I am also going to ask someone the question. And if I learn something new, or I learn that this view of mine is wrong, I will post it here. (in case I do not forget :) )

  17. captainjohann

    Hi Jingoist,
    The socalled TALIBAN , are they following Islam or Not?
    Is red Mosque which had weapons inside, a madrassa or a teaching institution?
    If western women want to loose their virginity before 15, what has it got to do with Islam in pakistan? You can have your Hijab or viel but can it be imposed on a Muslim women who doesnot want to use it?
    thanks

  18. jingoist

    @captainjohann
    May I know who you actually call Taliban?

  19. Leena S

    @ captainjohann
    anyone who has recited the kalima or has been born in a muslim family does not necessarily have to be a true muslim. Anyone sporting the hijab or a beard is not guaranteed to be a good muslim either.
    To understand what Islam is, it is important to study Islam rather than Muslims. Being humans we all have our fallacies and often bring a bad name to the religion cuz we ourselves end up doing a lot of wrong things in the name of Islam.
    Further, a lot is being confused between culture and religion. If there is something which is embedded in the Arab culture and is done till date, it does not mean its Islam.
    Finally, as for the Talibans…well thats a tricky question. You will find lots and lots of very liberal people having sympathies with them and a huge number of Islamic scholars condemning them. As jingoist as pointed out, it depends on who you perceive as the Taliban. According to a lot of people, even if you pray regularly, you are Taliban. For many, just being a pashtun is enough to be termed as the Taliban.

  20. jingoist

    @Captain…

    Leena S says it all!

  21. Isha

    Only if there were more of Ibad type muslims in the world, ppl would respect u guys. Go on increasinf Abdullahs and u ll be sent to ur prophet (only if he ever existed and was not a conman!!!)
    “Religion was born when the first con man met the first fool.” — Mark Twain

  22. Isha

    Also If I want to loose my virginity by 15 or earlier, its my life. Its better than chopping head in name of Islam or shooting and kicking women in public bcos they were not fully covered. Why dont u Muslims live in a cocoon and leave all the non-muslims aside. Behave as if u dont exist for us. World will be a better place without Abdullah types muslims! Go and settl in ur muslim country and stop senidng ur mindless freaks to our countries.
    I would rather loose my virginity than wearing that black bedsheet!!!

  23. Divine.Devil™

    Muhammad Saad said life is a test in which Allah provides two paths..the right and wrong..and the person chooses any one of them. Now having said that, when you IMPOSE religion on anyone, be it a member of islamic society, you disrupt the validity of the sacred TEST..becuz you take the matter of choice away from it and choice is what Allah gave to mankind in order to seperate the wrong-doers and righteous ones. Now heres a question that comes to our minds when we agree to that statement..that the teachings of Quran and Sunnah implies punishment on the wrong-doers. So both these facts, one logical and other based on faith, are in contradiction. So basically the choice in life is to choose between those two. Because no one with a sane mind could believe in bullshit you idiots call religion!

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